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parasyte
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PostSubject: the term black metal   Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:51 pm

we all know the first bm band was bathory, but i always wondered why venom has been credited with coining the term black metal since sure yes they recorded a thrashy album with the title black metal but Holy Moses had a thrash release 2 years prior entitled black metal masters...
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:28 pm

Because Venom were bigger! Seriously though, taking black metal from Black Metal probably stems from the fact that not only was it an awesome record, it carried heavy Satanic themes (http://www.metal-archives.com/release.php?id=24227 not very Satanic...) that were basically unheard of to that extent at that point in time. To show my point, look at the cover art of Black Metal and Holy Moses' first album.




Venom were a more direct influence on the musical sound of black metal as well. Yes, they don't play "black metal," but they do play Black Metal and Mayhem, Bathory and Slayer (among others) have a hell of a lot to thank them for.


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nureintier
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:13 am

Agreed with all that. Maybe they didn't sound like what came to be termed BM later on, but in all other areas they were BM-like.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:23 am

Venom is boring, overall.
Hmm, this Holy Moses thing is interesting, I didn't know that, and I guess few people actually do.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:44 am

nureintier wrote:
Agreed with all that. Maybe they didn't sound like what came to be termed BM later on, but in all other areas they were BM-like.

still doesnt make em bm right :Pthe only bm thing about venom is the lyrical content, but then one could say that for example black widow's satanic/occult lyrics in the 60s were black metal, since the lyrical content is the only bm link they have.

makes me laugh when people say mercyful fate is black metal as well

i remember people saying back in the day "black metal is all metal with satanic lyrics"
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oriasnuclearvomit
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:55 am

jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.

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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:33 am

parasyte wrote:
still doesnt make em bm right :Pthe only bm thing about venom is the lyrical content, "
That's why I said BM-like, sort of reminiscient of BM when you look at it in the right way. Add to that the album name and lyrical content, and I can see why people make the mistake of calling them that. Doesn't mean they are, but I mean, there are people who can't distinguish black metal from death metal, and those are the people who think Venom and Mercyful Fate are BM.

oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.
+1.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:56 am

oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.


Well, I got Prime Evil and it is very boring sub-par european thrash.


parasyte wrote:
i remember people saying back in the day "black metal is all metal with satanic lyrics"

True, it is ridiculous... plus I hate it... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:47 am

oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.

i'd say JB hit the nail right on the head, venom is very boring, with maybe 2 or 3 good songs
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nureintier
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:51 am

venom is boring now, yes, they've been boring for years, but they weren't boring when they started.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:52 am

parasyte wrote:
oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.

i'd say JB hit the nail right on the head, venom is very boring, with maybe 2 or 3 good songs

Well, he referenced a horrible album...I'm sorry. I think the first couple of albums are fucking awesome for the times.

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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:29 pm

oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
parasyte wrote:
oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.

i'd say JB hit the nail right on the head, venom is very boring, with maybe 2 or 3 good songs

Well, he referenced a horrible album...I'm sorry. I think the first couple of albums are fucking awesome for the times.


when i want to listen to thrahs i sure dont think of venom,
come to think of it, i never think about listening to venom
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:54 pm

How would you define black metal though? You cannot define it simply with musical conventions say it has blastbeats, tremolo guitars, shrieks or whatever, its called black metal because at the time it was the darkest, heaviest,evil and "blackest" music around, which is why all this new age pseudo intellectual "thoughtful" black metal can fuck right off.

Venom plays their thrash with a very dirty and evil aesthetic and has the imagery and theyd be a good early example of it and still are. Look at Bathory, it is classic 80's speed metal but played with a blackened aesthetic, same with early Sodom, Mutilator etc, all black metal to me.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:57 pm

jb wrote:
oriasnuclearvomit wrote:
jb wrote:
Venom is boring, overall.

Evil or Very Mad That was an asinine thing to say.


Well, I got Prime Evil and it is very boring sub-par european thrash.


Hearing one subpar album = boring overall?
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:02 pm

blockman wrote:
How would you define black metal though? You cannot define it simply with musical conventions say it has blastbeats, tremolo guitars, shrieks or whatever, its called black metal because at the time it was the darkest, heaviest,evil and "blackest" music around, which is why all this new age pseudo intellectual "thoughtful" black metal can fuck right off.
Quoted for truth.

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when i want to listen to thrash i sure don't think of venom,
come to think of it, i never think about listening to venom
Just because you personally don't like Venom, you are going to say they aren't a historically important band? In the early 80s, bands just didn't have dirty production and lyrics about Satan. They were important to the development of extreme metal, no matter who likes them or not or what genre they really happen to be. Loads of later BM may never have existed if it weren't for Venom.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:16 pm

I tried to avoid any post here because it is very childish, but well, I can't shut up. This thread and most people here are an insult to Black Metal itself. VENOM is the first Black Metal band ever. I generally judge people on their knowledge and good tastes upon this fact. I still can't believe that most people on this forum didn't understand this.
As for "Prime Evil", it is indeed a bad album, for sure it is not Black Metal... Come on, it's the 6th album, Cronos left, and anyway VENOM must be hailed from their beginning to the "Possessed" album (4th one). So to judge this ultimate legend without even knowing it, or knowing a recent bad album, is just pathetic.
In the 80's there were no labellings like today, like "this is Black Metal", "this is Thrash Metal" etc... It was METAL. Nowadays all ignorant kids want to classify EVERYTHING. One thing is sure, VENOM created the basis of Black Metal. Only a retarded fool can deny that.
Go and listen to your non-Metal shit you praise so much. Once again : VENOM is the first Black Metal band ever.
Hail to Orias, Nureintier and Blockman.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:32 pm

*YAWNS*!

Of course I heard the early albums, and if they had blown me away, I would have said it, but it was not the case. Shaxul, I revere nothing, no god nor band, and I won't be told how to think. Because everyone says Venom is super uber cult black metal won't make me like it, morelike the contrary. I don't like Venom, well, what can you do?
I can understand some people like it, though. But early Slayer, that is THRASH.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:39 pm

jb wrote:
*YAWNS*!

Of course I heard the early albums, and if they had blown me away, I would have said it, but it was not the case. Shaxul, I revere nothing, no god nor band, and I won't be told how to think. Because everyone says Venom is super uber cult black metal won't make me like it, morelike the contrary. I don't like Venom, well, what can you do?
I can understand some people like it, though. But early Slayer, that is THRASH.


Its not about liking it its about recongizing what Venom is, and they are a prime of example of the earliest Black Metal.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:03 pm

I think people associated their basic thrash, satanic aesthetics with their album name. I don't find much black metal.
Bathory s/t (1984) is much darker.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:16 pm

jb wrote:
I think people associated their basic thrash, satanic aesthetics with their album name. I don't find much black metal.
Bathory s/t (1984) is much darker.


No one is debating Bathory is darker, it isnt even close to basic thrash...Listen to Welcome to Hell and Black Metal for the first time and tell me what is basic about it. Their brand of thrash is extremely raw, dirty and evil sounding, it has a very blackened aesthetic and IS the sound that started what has become Black Metal and they were the first ones to play in such a style which clearly makes them the first Black metal band regardless if you like them or not. The imagery and lyrics just further add to it.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:49 pm

to me nothing sounds raw or harsh about old venom. sure i can enjoy the song black metal and a hand full other songs, like i said in an earlier post venom have a few songs i can enjoy but the most of them i find incredibly boring, i didnt just write this band off at a whim (i borrowed all the albums from my band's guitarist in 96 since he thought it was a crime i didnt listen to them). but to me this band is not black metal, for me the father of black metal is and always will be quorthon with the first bathory album. it has the raw distorted guitars the raspy vocals and the imagery and satanic content in lyrics to me the only thing that venom has which bathory had is the satanic lyrics, the image and a term they coined.

sure i can see venom as being important in the development of bm, since yes they coined the term since the holy moses demo went mostly unnoticed. but to me kiss and black sabbath are just as important to the development of metal as bands like venom, laying a building block for future bans to build on.

if anything venom created the building block for bathory to take one step further and create bm

sure in those days there was no name for the genres so people called it what ever, some people referred to kiss as metal at times, is it metal? fuck no.... people called mercyful fate black metal, was it? fuck no. and there's the various other bands who were called black metal. we still get this joke of bands being named something they're not (prime example is dimmu/cof thing)
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:22 pm

Fair enough, what im saying is Venom formed the sound of Black metal and Bathory did indeed push it further. Though I still strongly disagree that musically Venom has nothing to do with Black metal, when listening to Venom I never thought of it as anything but.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:26 pm

Do you guys not consider Hellhammer Black metal either?
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:52 pm

parasyte wrote:
to me nothing sounds raw or harsh about old venom.
Again, that doesn't mean they didn't sound this way in the early 80s. Now there are harsher bands, sure, but I mean I think it's important to view their first albums with a historical perspective.

I don't see why it even is an issue whether you people like them or not, I am just saying that either way, they were still important in the development of BM.

That being said, Venom was one of the first metal bands I got into as a kid, and having never heard anything vaguely similar to that at the time, their first two albums completely blew me away.

I suppose people who got into metal later and heard later Black Metal bands before they heard things like Venom wouldn't be as blown away, but I think their influence on BM cannot be ignored.

Quote :
sure in those days there was no name for the genres so people called it what ever
I blame the internet for all these fucking subgenres and in-fighting, and I think it's crap because people waste more time arguing about genres and subgenres than talking about actual music, speaking generally.
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PostSubject: Re: the term black metal   Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:00 pm

blockman wrote:
Do you guys not consider Hellhammer Black metal either?

Actually, I do.
Extremely dark, wicked, and there are some very raw vocals.
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