the term black metal

nureintier wrote:

parasyte wrote:

to me nothing sounds raw or harsh about old venom.

Again, that doesn't mean they didn't sound this way in the early 80s. Now there are harsher bands, sure, but I mean I think it's important to view their first albums with a historical perspective.

I don't see why it even is an issue whether you people like them or not, I am just saying that either way, they were still important in the development of BM.

I suppose people who got into metal later and heard later Black Metal bands before they heard things like Venom wouldn't be as blown away, but I think their influence on BM cannot be ignored.

isn't stating that venom created the building block which bathory took to create BM stating their important in the creation of black metal regardless of whether i like them or not?

blockman wrote:

Fair enough, what im saying is Venom formed the sound of Black metal and Bathory did indeed push it further. Though I still strongly disagree that musically Venom has nothing to do with Black metal, when listening to Venom I never thought of it as anything but.

i always considered venom a metal band with satanic lyrics who coined the term black metal

jb wrote:

blockman wrote:

Do you guys not consider Hellhammer Black metal either?

Actually, I do.
Extremely dark, wicked, and there are some very raw vocals.

aggreed






I guess in the end the venom vs bathory debate will be a never ending debate just like the varg vs euronymous debate
there will always be two sides

parasyte wrote:

isn't stating that venom created the building block which bathory took to create BM stating their important in the creation of black metal regardless of whether i like them or not?s

I was referring more to jb's:

Quote :

I don't like Venom, well, what can you do?

but I suppose I was too lazy to do multiple quotes. ^_^ anyway, I said "you people."

yeah, i think i am part of you people in this case aren't I
so i responded on behalf of us

Yeah I guess so. Nevermind. I can't be arsed to remember who's saying what. ^_^

I've just always considered it a nonissue and am surprised when people sort of ignore the influence.

It's not a matter of ignoring the influence. We (sorry, I'm talking on our behalf there) just think that Venom has little to do with black metal, pas the obvious influence it had.

imagine what kind of debates we'd all be having if the holy moses demo had not gone unnoticed and that's where the t erm black metal came from

or even better, if Kiss - creatures of the night album in 1982 (was it?) had a song called black metal and then bathory came along and did the debut album, and venom's album was called say Death Metal.

yes i wonder if Venom's album was called death Metal, if everyone who says venom are the first bm band would still call them a BM band, because that would take away (in my eyes) the only reason people really cling to calling venom bm

jb wrote:

It's not a matter of ignoring the influence. We (sorry, I'm talking on our behalf there) just think that Venom has little to do with black metal, pas the obvious influence it had.

yes couldnt have said it better than those words

jb wrote:

It's not a matter of ignoring the influence. We (sorry, I'm talking on our behalf there) just think that Venom has little to do with black metal, pas the obvious influence it had.

I thought the original question was "...why venom has been credited with coining the term black metal?" not "does venom have a lot to do with BM now?" And my answer was the album title and their influence, I think.

nureintier wrote:

jb wrote:

It's not a matter of ignoring the influence. We (sorry, I'm talking on our behalf there) just think that Venom has little to do with black metal, pas the obvious influence it had.

I thought the original question was "...why venom has been credited with coining the term black metal?" not "does venom have a lot to do with BM now?" And my answer was the album title and their influence, I think.

i think certain posts were thrown in declaring venom as bm fact causing the topic of the debate to slightly twist

I just woke up from all this... when I started to listen to metal, an older guy, the "metal mentor" of our town, showed up venom and bathory and mercyful fate and celtic frost... the term black metal was already there, mostly due to the subjects of the lyrics and the imagery of the bands. Later on it seems the term passed to define the musical genre, linked to an ideology... I think something like this, or at least I've lived up with this idea.
yeah what about celtic frost?

oh yeah... if we apply the imagery and themes stuff, even the first Slayer would be black metal, the same as Possessed and so on...

parasyte wrote:

because that would take away (in my eyes) the only reason people really cling to calling venom bm

Obviously it isnt the only reason people consider Venom black metal regardless of if you agree or not. The only people mentioning the name of the album having signifigance are the people saying they arent black metal.

blockman wrote:

parasyte wrote:

because that would take away (in my eyes) the only reason people really cling to calling venom bm

Obviously it isnt the only reason people consider Venom black metal regardless of if you agree or not. The only people mentioning the name of the album having signifigance are the people saying they arent black metal.

the reason i asked is, you're not calling other satanic leather clad thrash bands black metal

Maybe I will listen a bit insulting but fuck thrash metal!!!
It was a huge trend and nothing more!
well now to say what I think, in the beginning was heavy metal and the explosion of NWOBHM, so some bands in the style following the metal tradition had satanic lyrics and of course they supported their music with dark music, the most famous of them was Venom. This was Black Metal satanic Heavy Metal very dark and then raw too!
Then some bands played faster, labels and shitty jurnalists called it a bit latter thrash metal, but I think there some bands in the beginning that followed the Venom way and became darker and more raw like Bathory, Hellhammer, old Sodom, early Destruction, Slayer etc and some others were very influenced from some other HM acts too, this was the speed metal gerne, which have also very interesting and killer bands but it is a different story...
After 1986 started to told around "we are thrash etc" they wore short trousers brought a lot of silly influences and the metal thing was out, they were a huge trend, then Death/black ug formed etc so no real tharsh metal just fast heavy metal and proto black for me.
And those who ignore it yes Venom was BLACK METAL and they were the biggest band in the genre , you can listen to Lady Lust song to see how Quorthon created his stuff in his debut.
Also I want to ask those who think Venom are not BM,
Tormentor(Hun),early Root,Mortuary Drape,Sabbat(Jap),Varathron are BM?

BM so is simply evil and raw real METAL and nothing else!

Of course there were some honest thrash acts but not in western world and finally I think there are still few real dedicated acts in genre...

Are you Zlatko's little brother?

No Iam from Greece! Milovan did the logo of my zine!He is a friend!

I can see that

hehe, yeah you are right Milovan has already his own style I think!

Early Venom is pure black metal not fucking Darkthrone or Gorgoroth..
First Slayer album is black metal too!

avrlabel wrote:

Early Venom is pure black metal not fucking Darkthrone or Gorgoroth..
First Slayer album is black metal too!

Orias, can you put a yawn smiley in the list?

jb wrote:

avrlabel wrote:

Early Venom is pure black metal not fucking Darkthrone or Gorgoroth..
First Slayer album is black metal too!

Orias, can you put a yawn smiley in the list?

Should I say SATAN?

jb wrote:

Should I say SATAN?

No Ill say that!

We can end it all here. Argue all you want...but Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, Bathory, Sarcofago, and Venom are all responsible for a ridiculous amount of influence on Black Metal. Ideologically speaking, the early bands weren't so stern on that. However, you can't deny that..even bands like Von and (Early) Mayhem could be a major influence, as they both released stuff fairly early into the development of BM.

jb wrote:

Should I say SATAN?

Sorry, couldn't help myself there...

that Holy Moses demo is pretty obscure, doubt it made a name for itself in 1980 in the same way Venom did in 1982...

just downloaded a video of venom playing black metal, so i could save it into my thrash folder